Radical Forgiveness - An Interview with Colin TippingBy Oliver Klatt
Oliver Klatt: Somebody once said: „When we forgive our parents and elders, what‘s left?“ So, what would you say: What‘s left then?
Colin Tipping: Well, actually, with Radical Forgiveness, there‘s nothing left, because the whole point of Radical Forgiveness is that nothing wrong ever happened. There’s nothing left except to just be with the fact that everything is exactly as it needs to be - and that there is nothing to forgive. But that‘s a long way down the line, especially for somebody who is new at it and has not heard this before. This is a very radical point of view for forgiveness. In fact I would never say it to someone who is in pain, right at the beginning, when something just happened to him, or while he is still in an emotional turmoil. Radical Forgiveness is not an intervention technique. You can bring it to the table only when you feel that the person is ready to open up to that possibility.
Oliver Klatt: One central aspect of your method, as written in your book „Radical Forgiveness“ is, that forgiveness is recognizing, that nobody did you any harm in the first place. Could you explain a little bit more about the background to this point of view?
Colin Tipping: I think it is best if I first explain by first looking at the traditional point of view of forgiving so you can then see the difference. With traditional forgiveness, you are actually trying to forgive something that you believe was wrong and bad and shouldn‘t have happened. That means you are still coming from a place of believing that you have been victimized, that you have been injured. That said, you are willing to forgive that in some way. The problem is that these two energies are contradictory and oppose each other – the need to condemn and the desire to forgive. This is why it‘s very difficult for people, to actually achieve traditional forgiveness. But that‘s the traditional point of view–and that‘s our point of view from the human standpoint. Clearly from the human standpoint, something wrong did happen. But from the spiritual standpoint, and this is where we go with Radical Forgiveness, everything that we choose to do, at the soul level, is for our growth and development and learning. It‘s in that sense, that nothing wrong happened, because there is an intention behind everything. While this is not necessarily pre-planned, because some of it is just made up in the moment, as part of our divine plan that is constantly evolving, it‘s all part of the game that we came here to play...
Oliver Klatt: ...and that we play now...
Colin Tipping: ...yes, and it‘s a case of really always being in a position of double thinking. And that is to say: You first see things out of your own human eyes and according to the rules of the physical world out here and the way we operate. That‘s one way of looking at the world, and often it doesn‘t look so good. But at the same time we can have this other point of view, an overview if you will, that despite of what we are seeing here, we are able to see that there is this perfection in there somewhere. We do not understand this perfection and probably never will given the consciousness that we have right now. I think it‘s necessary to be able to do this double thinking, because it‘s no good just having the spiritual point of view and saying: Everything is perfect and therefore I don‘t have to do anything to make things better. That‘s an apathetic point of view. But if we can see what‘s happening in the human world and take the action that we think is required to make things better, while at the same time knowing that it‘s all part of the divine plan, then we will be much more powerful in the world.
Oliver Klatt: Sometimes I experience consciously shifting from one standpoint to the other one. First I‘m here (lifts up the left hand), and then, a moment later, I‘m there (lifts up the right hand)... Do you know this experience, too?
Colin Tipping: Yes, absolutely. And the practice, I think, is to slowly bring those two together. First you see it here (lifts up the left hand), and then you see it there (lifts up the right hand). And the closer you can get these two points together (leads both hands together), you can be in both at the same time.
Oliver Klatt: And this can be really challenging sometimes... I want to ask you about another basic aspect of your method: If I understand you well, you say in your book, that we are always responsible a hundred per cent for all what happens to us. Could you explain more about the background to this?
Colin Tipping: Again, it‘s the same idea: Our purpose for being here is to experience seperation in one form or another–I think that‘s what we have contracted to do, if you like. We said: „Okay, we know what oneness is, and what it really is to be in all that is!“ And then we said: "I would like to go to school on planet Earth and FEEL what‘s it like to be seperate, to live in a seperate body and to feel the pain of the seperation, so that I can expand my sense of oneness." That is the underlying philosophy.
Having come here is a choice that we‘ve made, and then it‘s the question: What we are going to do? What kind of seperation do I want to experience? We may think: ‚Well... maybe abandonement would be something that I really want to experience. Okay! So who can help me with that? Ah, I think I‘ll go together with this soul here. You‘ll seduce me and marry me–and after three years you‘ll abandon me... oh thanks!‘ Its like a soul agreement. And we are constantly creating the events of our lives, in order to give us the experience that we came in to have.
However, I think that there comes a point, in a life, where we feel we have done enough of that–and we begin to awaken to the other side. In other words: First our focus has been very much on the human world, because spiritual amnesia is one of the things that we had agreed to. But I think that now, particularly, people start to wake up, often around their midlife, starting with questions like: „Is there more than this?“ or „There must be another kind of truth...“ And then they discover things like Radical Forgiveness, or Reiki, or Transcendental Meditation or something else, to take them beyond the simple human experience. And what I see is that their focus becomes more to be of service to other people. That‘s the first way this sense shows up. And another feature is that people develop the observer. They begin to be more self-aware, monitoring their own feelings, monitoring their thoughts, meditating more, listening to the internal voice. All those things start to happen and I think it‘s an awakening process that each individual is doing–and I see it happening worldwide
Oliver Klatt: That‘s also my impression.
Colin Tipping: It‘s a worldwide phenomenon, in a way that has never been before. And it looks to me like it will be a mass awakening. That‘s what I‘m hoping for. Because I want to be still around when it will happen.
Oliver Klatt: Me, too. This is a wonderful vision! Well, I want to come to another theme now, and this is a shadow aspect of forgiveness: taking revenge on somebody. What would you say about this? Do you think that there is any good reason for taking revenge on somebody?
Colin Tipping: Revenge is sweet... and there is a lot to that. It‘s a human experience, a human emotion, and it has to be honored. The feeling at least. Not necessarily the action. I feel that whatever emotions people are having, that needs to be honored. But the feeling is important. It shouldn‘t be censored, it shouldn‘t be changed. It‘s just what it is. Because that‘s where a lot of the power is: in the energy of that emotion. And we can bring it to the surface and then transform it through the forgiveness process. But it‘s important to feel the feelings first. So, revenge or that feeling of wanting revenge is a very powerful emotion, and, in human terms, probably justified. But what we do know, psychologically, is, that it doesn‘t help you in the end. Revenge is not a cleansing. It might be sweet for a little while, but it doesn‘t really help the person, whereas forgiveness really helps the person.
Oliver Klatt: So what you do, with your method, is to take the power of an emotion like „wanting revenge“ and to you use it, to transform it in its positive part that is forgiveness?
Colin Tipping: Yes, but always honoring it when a person expresses the emotion. Somebody got hurt, and who might say: „You shouldn‘ t feel this feeling?“ It is better to say: „Its a natural feeling, but wouldn‘t you rather feel peaceful?“ And probably they say: „No, I want to have my revenge.“ But eventually the feeling of peace is much more desirable, than the anger, that underlies the need to revenge. And then we try to create an inner space for gratitude, so that this person is able to feel gratitude for what the other person has been willing to do FOR him or her. This is a huge step. But it seems to happen almost automatically. You suddenly realize that it didn‘t happen TO you, but it happened FOR you. That it is something like a gift. It‘s a gift from God or whatever you want to call it that comes through somebody‘s willingness to say: „Well, I surrender to the idea that maybe this is perfect...“
Oliver Klatt: You just mentioned God... When a person forgives another person, this is one thing. People who believe in God may say: God forgives us. What is your point of view concerning the part that God play in the process of forgiving?
Colin Tipping: Everybody is doing this differently, according to his own belief. I don‘t tie Radical Forgiveness in with any religion, and I don‘t exclude any religion. The only thing that requires is the belief, that there is some higher power greater thanourselves. If you are an atheist, you‘ll probably have a hard time with this. But there is this awareness of some sort of universal intelligence beyond ourselves. And the idea of a mortal soul, and that we were a spiritual entity, before we came here, and we will probably be a spiritual entity when we will leave here. As far as I know, most religions believe that, too– the only thing in contention is whether we do it more than once. The way I try to explain this is a way that is as non-religious as possible. I believe we have a faculty of mind called spiritual intelligence, and actually I see spiritual intelligence as a shared phenomenon. We all have it. It gives us the ability to tap into Universal Intelligence which is all-knowing and has total spiritual wisdom. This is the part of us that I would call God. I don‘t think of God as a man with a beard. It‘s more like a little transistor radio: There is this universal intelligence, and I use my transistor radio, my spiritual intelligence, to tap into it, and I get all the intelligence I want.
Oliver Klatt: That‘s interesting what you say. One of the Grandmasters of the Usui System of Reiki, Hawayo Takata, explained the connection to Reiki in this way, with the picture of a transistor radio...
Colin Tipping: So Reiki intelligence could be the same as spiritual intelligence, and you are a channel, when you are doing it.
Oliver Klatt: Yes. And there is another point of view, that says that Reiki is not the spiritual intelligence itself, but that it allows the spiritual intelligence to come in more. Seen like this, a Reiki treatment is a kind of preparation to better connect with the spiritual intelligence, to build a bridge to God. What about your method? Do you also work with spiritual energy? Does Radical Forgiveness has an energy aspect?
Colin Tipping: Yes, I would say the whole thing is an energy experience. Even though I personally am not energy sensitive. By that I mean, when I come into a room, I don‘t feel or see energy. But I know that this whole process is energetic. And that‘s the level its working at.
Oliver Klatt: In your new book, „Radical Manifestation“, you write about how to work with the concept of Radical Forgiveness in a way, that supports us to create the life we want to have. What, would you say, is really possible for us to create in our lives: A little bit of what we want? A little bit more? Everything? In any time?
Colin Tipping: The only limitation is our willingness and our openness to receive, because, if the quantum physics is right, there is that great sea of unlimited potential, where everything that ever was, that is and that ever will be is there. And the consciousness is the element that can bring it through. That means that potentially we can create anything we want...
Oliver Klatt:... if we manage to bring the two standpoints–the human point of view and the spiritual one–a hundred per cent together, as we said earlier...
Colin Tipping: Yes.. And the human point of view is the fact that our mind usually gets in the way. And so, like for any other skill, you have to learn how to bring it more and more together with the spiritual point of view.
Oliver Klatt: Does the method of Radical Manifestation also contain the aspect of grace? I mean that you can receive something passively, too, so that you have both sides again here?
Colin Tipping: Yes, absolutely. And when things come to you, then you want to rationalize it and say: „Well, my aunt died and left me some money, but it doesn‘t have to do anything with me.“ Putting it out there, in that way, it becomes just a coincidence. Then we negate the idea that we had asked for something, and that it now comes to us in a way that we hadn‘t expected. That‘s all part of the law of attraction. And that‘s the grace. If we can see it that way, and say: „Oh, thank you!“, then something happens into us internally. It becomes a part of our cellular structure, if you like. And the structure will be shifted and changed energetically.
Oliver Klatt: And a keyword for this is gratitude.
Colin Tipping: Yes, and when you start to really notice it, it happens a lot, much more than we imagine at first. And again, it‘s all about developing this observation: „Oh, look how that happened!“ Being more willing to receive what we had asked for. And noticing that it does happen. Because often we don‘t notice. We start simple and with small things, and then expand our willingness to receive more and more.
Oliver Klatt: There is one point in the idea of Positive Thinking, that I always have a big question about. Somebody gave the following example: At the European Football Championship this year, there are sixteen teams. And every team wants to become number one, in the end. But it is not possible for every team. It‘s only possible for one of the sixteen teams. So there seem to be limitations for the other fifteen... Do you have a comment to that?
Colin Tipping: Let me first make a comment to the idea of Positive Thinking. I don‘t see Positive Thinking as a Manifestation. These are two different things. And I don‘t believe in Positive Thinking, because it usually means that you are just suppressing the negative. But feelings are feelings, whatever they are. Thoughts are thoughts, whatever they are. They need to be observed, rather than just censored.
Oliver Klatt: So what is the main difference between Positive Thinking and Radical Manifestation?
Colin Tipping: Radical Manifestation is a prayer, more than anything else. It‘s an asking, for whatever it is that you want. But you are not attached to what it is that you will get. That‘s the spiritual step, to not be attached. In other words: Your spirit knows much more better than you what you really need. And the only prayer in Radical Manifestation is: „Give me what is in my highest and best interest.“ But we need a lot of trust in order to do that. And in the case of the European Football Championship, the first team will be the one for whom it‘s in highest and best interest if they get number one. And the team that will be number two will be the team for whom it‘s in their highest and best interest to be number two, in order to need to feel how it is not to be number one.
Oliver Klatt: So in the end it becomes a kind of compromise...
Colin Tipping: I don‘t think that it‘s a compromise. Everybody is getting exactly what he needs.
Oliver Klatt: From the side of the ego it may feel like a compromise.
Colin Tipping: Yes, a disappointment...
Oliver Klatt: But you get a hundred per cent what you need?
Colin Tipping: Yes. And team number three is getting what it needs, in order to feel what it‘s like not to be number two... (laughing)
Oliver Klatt: (laughing) ...so if one of the sixteen teams wins and the other fifteen not, then it‘s for all of them for their highest and best interest, on the spiritual level...
Colin Tipping: And the people with a metaphysical understanding as deep as that are probably not the best football players. Because for that they have got to be really into a competitive nature. I could never be one of these people. Because I would be saying: Whatever... if we loose, it‘s okay!
Oliver Klatt: But do you really think that for every human being on this planet, now, in this moment, everything is exactly like they want, on the spiritual level? Or do you think there will be a point in the future, where we all, without any exclusion, will have transformed our human standpoint a hundred percent to the spiritual one? Is there a kind of final point to go, to reach for, the Golden Age, the paradise again, and then with a hundred percent consciousness–or will this just never happen?
Colin Tipping: I feel that we can‘t even see at the moment how that might be like. It‘s so much part of the big spiritual picture, which we have no access to, that this is a point that we can only imagine what it might be like, to be in a constant state of bliss and peace and love. The way I see it, and that‘s just how I make it up, is that the great experiment is almost over. The great experiment has been the expansion of the mind of God, and for that expansion to take place, in order for God to be manifest. He had to create us, to create this big experiment, so that God could feel what it would be like to be manifest. So he puts on little gloves, playing in this world, but the experiment has come to a place where he says: „Okay, that‘s enough! Lets bring heaven and earth together now!“ So we‘ll still be in bodies, and we‘ll probably still be playing football, but the game will be different, the rules of the game will be different. I wouldn‘t say that there will be no more disagreements, but the way we will be with the disagreements will be from a place of love and open heartedness–and we‘ll play football with our hearts open. That‘s how I see it. And I think it‘s around the corner, I feel that it‘s coming. What we are experiencing now, in this modern age, with all its problems, is the healing crisis that will take us there. The break-down is part of the break-through. In that sense, everything that is occurring in the world, the wars and anything else is purpose for God who is taking us to that place. We will go through our healing crisis and will come up on the other side!
Oliver Klatt: Mr. Tipping, thank you for the interview!
Copyright © by Oliver Klatt